OFFICIAL VEKN GIOVANNI NEWSLETTER Vol.III No.9 September.2001
SPECIAL WEENIEBUSTING ISSUE
In this Issue:
INTRODUCTION
WHISPERS FROM THE DEAD: Weenies, Transfers, and the Sheldon Situation
CONCLUSION/PREVIEW
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INTRODUCTION
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As my fellow newsletter writer Wes (originally !Brujah, now the
Follower of Set) said once, "the newsletter is for whatever I feel
like writing about." (Well, something like that. =) I had an idea I
wanted to bat around, and it turned into a ~18K monstronsity.
Correspondingly, I'll be devoting the entire newsletter to this one
topic, and put off the juicy Necro-Mafia stuff till next month.
[Ed Note; also, my newsserver hates big posts, and often mysterious
times out, so I'm gonna try posting through Google. Wish me luck.]
Anyway, for those with too much time on their hands, read on. =)
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WHISPERS FROM THE DEAD: Weenies, Transfers, and the Sheldon Situation
================================================================
One thing that Sabbat War and Final Nights seems to have pushed for is
to reward the playing of larger vampires: Rabble Razing, reprinted
Tomb of Ramses, Free States Rant, Zillah's Valley, Venenation, The
Final Nights; even Blood of the Sabbat, Patronage, Eternal Vigilance,
and Blood Siege, to some extent are either "anti-weenie" and/or
"pro-fatty." The Followers of Set being more viable alone makes the
metagame less friendly for "weenie decks."
The problem, of course, is that no matter what the size of the
vampire, they can all block one action and all bleed for one. Or call
one KRC, or use the Haven Uncovered, or remove the Seeds of
Corruption, or remove the Atonement before the Atoned vampire untaps.
And losing Smudge to a bloodhunt is no big loss; losing Anson to a
Hostile Takeover might shut you down.
This is somewhat summed up in Robert Goudie's classic essay "The
Sheldon Situation: The Challenge of Playing Large Vampires"
http://www.vtesinla.org/sheldon.htm
And lots of cards seem to have been made to make it more worth
playing the "Fatties" instead of the "Weenies." But, except for
Zillah's Valley, none of the cards address the "real" problem, and
that is *speed*.
(You might want to skim/skip the example; it's a bit long, and
somewhat specific, but it makes the point.)
Let's say I'm playing a !Toreador combat (spiced with some bleed)
deck, to liven up the game and have some fun. My opening crypt is
Miller, the Art of Pain Monkey(8-cap); Jost Whiner(6-cap); Carter, the
Unstoppable Sex Machine (2-cap); and Melisande, "I wish I was
Jacko"(9-cap). Not a bad draw; it centers around Miller anyway, so
it's good he showed up.
I've got a Wakey and an Enchant Kindred, and I'm going first, so I
put my one transfer on Melisande. I can now have her or Miller in 2
turns, and/or Jost AND Carter in 2 turns. (29 pool)
My predator's turn, she flips up Igo, Nik, Navar, and Smudge. I
groan.
I need SOME kind of defense, so I drop 2 on Jost and 2 on Carter,
bringing him out. (25 pool)
My predator plays Effective Management, and Computer Hacks with
all 4 guys; I block and punch Igo with Carter, and then Wake and
Sideslip Smudge, because I don't feel like hunting next turn. Navar
and Nik get through. Hasina comes out. I'm now at 21 pool.
I've got to stay untapped, so Carter does nothing. I bring out
Jost, and I've got a Telepathic Counter in hand, and draw up a Forced
Awakening. I'm now at 17 pool.
My predator Effectively Manages again. Igo hunts, but I can't
afford to kill him with 3 other guys coming at me. Smudge hunts, and
then Navar Computer Hacks. I TeleCounter with Jost. Nik and Hasina
Computer Hack, and Carter and Jost block both, punching for 1 each
time; I can't use any of the additional strikes in my hand, and that
Enchant Kindred is so much dross for defense. Royce comes out.
My turn. Carter hunts, Jost has to sit there to defend. Still at
17 pool, I have to wonder...do I bring out Miller? He can whack
weenies, but that's 2 turns later. If I try, I'm at 13 pool. If not,
18 (take the 1 pool from Melisande back off).
Predator's turn. No effective Management. Nik and Hasina hunt.
Smudge, Igo, Navar and Royce all Computer Hack. Jost blocks once and
Forced Awakenings once, punching Smudge and Igo. Royce and Navar get
through. I'm at 9 pool if I was going for Miller, 14 if not. Jost is
at 3 blood, Carter 1. She pays a pool to go fishing for another
weenie.
My turn. I can't afford to put on any forward pressure with this
monster behind me. Wish I could cycle more cards so I could get to
those anti-weenie cards I put in, like Atonement and Guardian Angel,
but it's hard when I'm getting POUNDED so quickly. I leave Jost and
Carter untapped, plead to the table for help. [If I get Miller out,
I'm down to 5 pool]. If not, I'm at 14 pool. Neither situation is
good if I'm looking for help. 14 pool is still a bunch, and bringing
yourself to 5 pool is "your own damn fault."
Predator's turn: Effective Management. Smudge and Igo hunt; my
grandpredator helps out by punching Igo into torpor. Nik, Navar,
Royce and Hasina all Hack away; [Miller takes down Nik], Jost and
Carter trade with Navar and Royce, and Hasina, saved for last, gets
through. I'm at 10 pool without Miller, [or 3 pool with Miller].
Carter is empty. Huang and Antoinette come out. My predator has
spent 10 pool. Even with some pressure, she can basically "soak" with
the other 20...she's about to get 6 pool.
My turn. Carter gets Superior Celerity and hunts, Jost sits tight
at 2 blood. [Miller rushes Hasina and whacks her, predator has now
"spent" 11 pool, but I cycle a lot of combat cards, drawing into a
Wake]. I'm at 10 [4, I transfer off] pool, with 5 [3] weenies behind
me with blood, and 2 that will hunt.
Predator's turn; Effective Management. Navar and Royce hunt. [Nik
and Hasina hang out in torpor]. Everyone else Hacks, and Jost blocks
one of them, getting punched to 1 blood. [Miller blocks one and torps
it, and then Wakes and torps another. Angela Decker comes out. I'm
now down to 2 [4] pool. I've got 7 [3] weenies behind me with blood,
Carter and Jost have 1 blood, [and even Miller's getting beaten down];
things look bad.
My turn. I remain untapped, making strangled noises to the rest
of the table, and discard to look for more Wakes or some pool gain.
Bleed cards fill my hand, but I can't Enchant backwards to an older
vampire, nor afford the 1 pool to go fishing just for that.
Predator's turn; Misdirection on Jost. One weenie hunts.
Everyone else Computer Hacks, and I block one of them, but die on the
second. [Or, Misdirection on Miller. One weenie hunts, the other 3
Hack. Jost and Carter take one each, going to zero blood. I'm down
to 2 pool. I will die next turn.]
At no time could I afford to put any pressure on my prey; this
might make things hard for my weenie-Hacking predator to get that 2nd
VP, but his numerical superiority, even with Miller smashing weenies
giving me one extra turn at life, only would have left me being killed
by my grandprey.
Had I been playing Deflections, even a LOT, I merely would have
put some pressure on my prey, giving my weenie predator a better
chance of a sweep, since I wasn't punching them to slow him down.
Best vampire I could have was Miller; hitting 1-caps into torpor,
cardlessly, is one case where Bigger is Better; but it's still not
enough, partially because Miller takes so long to get out; had I
gotten him out first, I would have been bled for 8, gotten him, killed
2 weenies, and been bled for 4 more, and be at 9 pool, pronto, and at
the point of diminishing returns.
And even Carter, the 2-cap, could make the 1-caps hunt,
effectively stopping 2 actions for the price of one...but only twice,
and then he's basically a 1-cap himself.
Maybe if I could have gotten Victor Revell with Atonement? Not
likely; first action is all the weenies remove the Atonement; that
might slow him down for 1 turn. "The Wall" to stop weenies really
needs cards to be effective, because setting up permanents takes
time...and time, my dears, is the one thing you don't have, and the
weenies do. They start ahead of the curve, and keep ahead of it. I
basically lost 4 pool EVERY turn, going wholly on the defensive. You
start out behind, and really can't catch up.
Ok, so can anything be done about this? Possible solutions:
* Don't play in tournaments, and ban weenie decks in local play; not
too workable when one of your players is nicknamed "The Weeniemonger."
* Overly prepare for weenies; be ready to crush them out of the gate
with all your decks. Die to non-weenie decks, and/or find that
preparing for weenie vote is different than weenie bleed is different
than weenie rush.
* Play only Setites, with lots of Dramatic Upheavals, Bribes, and
Corruption.
* Change the rules.
The last is the most absurd choice, of course, but it's the one I
want to examine.
** The Transfer Rules **
Certainly the "point system" for vampires seems to make sense for
their capacities, and certainly the pool expenditure that corresponds
with capacity makes sense, insofar that more powerful vampires take
more influence to have them doing your bidding. And, it works out to
be fairly balanced, assuming your crypt consists of correctly-costed
vampires.
But the transfer system is a bit problematic:
* Opening uncontrolled region of 4 vampires, out of a minimum crypt of
12.
* 4 Transfers per turn
* You can spend 1 transfer on a vampire in your uncontrolled region to
move one pool to them.
* You can spend 2 transfers on a vampire in your uncontrolled region
to move one blood off of them back to your pool.
* You can spend 4 transfers and 1 pool to move the top card of your
crypt to your uncontrolled region.
* Exception: the number of transfers ramp up at the start, the first
player getting 1, the second 2, the third 3, and then the game carries
on as normal. This is ostensibly to keep reduce any unfair advantage
of going first.
It is obvious to anyone with any play experience that this system
favors the weenie crypts. Not only does the weenie player save plenty
of pool by getting small guys, and not only does she get more actions
per point of pool spent, but she ALSO gets the speed bonus. If her
crypt average size is N times smaller than yours, she'll have about N
times more minions than you. The stopgap measure for this is a
starting crypt of 4, and having to spend a full 4 transfers AND a pool
to "go fishing" for another vampire. Any self respecting weenie deck,
of course, will be packing Effective Management and/or Info Highway to
get around this problem.
The problem with larger vampires, especially 9+ caps, is that
they're "double counted." You pay twice as much for an 8-cap as a
4-cap in pool. But then you ALSO pay an additional turn to bring him
out. You pay only slightly more than twice with 9 or 10 caps, but pay
2 extra turns to bring him out...which, as seen from the example,
could easily be 4-8 pool more you're "paying."
The "Fatties" have some recourses to gain speed: Zillah's Valley;
Tomb of Ramses; Info Highway; Ingrid Rossler; Govern the Unaligned,
Scouting Mission, and Enchant Kindred at superior; the 4th Tradition;
The Khabar: Loyalty; Heartblood of the Clan; Ecoterrorists and all
it's copies for the other clans; Dreams of the Sphinx; Recruiting
Party; Nikolaus Vermeulen...I might have forgotten one or two.
That might seem like a lot, but most all of those require a member
of a clan to already be influenced, or a vampire older than the other
one you want to get out. If that member is bigger than an 4-cap, then
you're not moving really fast. Also, that limits your choices of
Fatties to play; you need Princes, Dominate, Presence or Assamites to
"influence backwards" with minion cards. The bulk of the rest are
Masters, and while the weenie deck can afford to have only Effective
Management, a Fatty deck can't afford to have 8 Info Highways. (Sure,
you can have 3 Dreams and 3 Info Highways... but so can the weenie
deck.)
Also, the number 4 is magic, but not *totally* arbitrary. It
appears these days that the "point" system grants:
1-4 caps: capacity -1 points
5-8 caps: capacity in points
9+ caps: capacity +1 points
So while you can't normally get a 5 cap in 1 turn, you get a bit
more for it, and while it usually takes 3 turns to get a 9 cap, you
get even more. (There are numerous exceptions to this, of course.)
I can't speak for certain, but I'm pretty sure the cost of 4
transfers and 1 pool for going fishing is really "all your normal
transfers and 1 pool" to go fishing. That is, if the normal number of
transfers in the game had been, say, 5, or 6, I think the rules would
have been 5, or 6 transfers and 1 pool to move the top vampire of your
crypt to your uncontrolled region.
** What If... **
And, while the system seems to work, overall, you just don't see
"the big boys and girls" played that often. Obvious exceptions are
large titled vampires, especially Camarilla Princes and Justicars,
since Minion Tap/5th works better the larger the vampires. And it's
fair to worry about "putting all your eggs in one basket," especially
with weenie-Potence Rush packing Amaranth about. And mid-caps might
do the job just as well; the Sheldon Situation dictates to use the
smallest vamps that can do the job.
But, it's often you hear "he's just too big," or "the deck is just
to slow," or "this deck takes a while to build up, so it dies to
weenies." Pity that deck ideas that require large (non-Prince)
vampires get squashed, primarily because of fear of being run over
before they even get off the ground.
Well, what if the transfer system were changed, perhaps to
equalize or even favor the larger vampires? The weenies already have
the advantage of being cheap; do they really need the additional
advantage of speed?
Some propositions:
1) No transfers at all. In your influence phase, you influence out
one vampire of your choice, moving as much pool as neccesary to fill
them to capacity. (Yes, that means 7 for Tariq!) Or, pay a pool to go
fishing instead.
What this does: Removes the initial weenie speed advantage.
Everyone gets one minion, then 2, then 3, as long as they can afford
it.
Problems with this: What about Zillah's and the Info Highway and
Nikolaus and all that? What about Governing backwards and then
putting the blood back into your pool? What about Brainwash?
However, consider how the example would have gone. It's pretty
simple. Miller comes out, takes no actions, and blocks and kills one
weenie every turn, and the other vamps come out and can go forward,
since the weenie player is only bringing out one minion a turn.
Totally different game. Maybe beating down the weenies too much?
2) Transfers can be used as normal, but a player may spend 4 transfers
on one vampire and pay 1 pool to bring out a vampire of any capacity,
as in proposition 1).
What this does: Basically, it's a Zillah's Valley for any
capacity of vampire, doing what Zillah's does for 8-caps, paying N+1
pool to get an N-cap vampire. (Brainwash works, now.)
Problems with this: Wallpapers Zillah's, weakens Info Highway.
Also, if you get 3 transfers, you only get 3 transfers, but player #4
can bring out Leandro on the spot, making for quite a jump in
effectiveness in the "ramp up" the game usually has.
Also, this doesn't quite solve the weenie problem. From the
example: Sure, Miller could pop up on turn 2, but it cost 9 pool, and
he can only stop one, two with a Wake. However, he could Enchant
backwards to get out Carter, and pop out Jost for 7 pool, and have 2
blockers on turn #3.
3) Transfers can be used as normal, but a player may spend ALL their
transfers on one vampire and pay 1 pool to bring out a vampire of any
capacity.
What this does: Same as proposition 2), but gets rid of the "jump"
in transfer capability between player #3 and #4.
Problems with this: Corner-cases Zillah's and Tomb of Ramses, and
Near-wallpapers Info Highway. Sure, you can get a 5 or 6 cap for 1
less, but mostly it's only good for taking all 3 blood from Superior
Govern back into your pool, pronto. Also, it kind of "wipes out" the
"ramp up" phase of the first time around the table. (But, since
ANYONE can get a vampire on turn 1, no one is helpless by going last).
Possible variations: paying all your transfers and 2 pool, or even
3, to get the "insta-vamp."
In the example, Miller or Melisande could have come out first,
even with 1 transfer, and either of them could have killed a weenie or
two (Melisande, who gets to punch for 1, and then 1 more). They could
both then kill weenies, and even make 2-caps hunting out of the gate.
But, the weenie player isn't dead out of the gate, either, since she
can still bring out 4 guys at once.
4) ... well, you get the point. You can keep evolving from there, but
it would take playtesting.
Let's change gears, though:
While having 4 transfers matches the point system for vamps well,
certainly other numbers are almost TOTALLY arbitrary. Notably, the
opening uncontrolled region of 4 vampires, and a minimum crypt of 12
vampires. They're set by the rules, and just about nobody breaks
these rules, but you could certainly influence the game a good bit by
playing with these.
5) How about 3 vamps in your opening uncontrolled region of 3
vampires, and a minimum crypts size of 9?
What this does: Slows down the weenie deck by having no more than
3 vamps hit the table on turn #1. Keeps most other decks in good
shape, by still getting 1/3 of your vamps to start. Helps some deck
designs by only needing a crypt of 9 vamps instead of 12, requiring
less "doubling up" of the vampires with the right skills. Makes it a
bit easier to make a deck built around one or two vamps, since
"fishing" goes through your crypt faster.
Problems with this: Probably hurts mid-cap decks the most, though;
it's nice to have a choice of 4 vamps over a choice of 3, but this is
counterbalanced by it being easier to pick 9 unique mid-caps for the
job than it is 12. Paradoxically makes it *harder* to play decks
built around one vampire, because it's easier to end up with 3 copies
of the same guy.
Possible variations: Lots. Play with the numbers all around,
opening draw, minimum crypt, starting transfers.
6) Add Propositions 3) and 5) together.
What this does: Gives a bit of speed advantage to mid-cap and
"fatty" decks, and again, keeps the weenies from being a horde too
fast and too soon.
Problems with this: Maybe squashes weenies flat. Might be a good
time to have the "insta-vamp" cost 2 or 3 extra pool instead of 1.
Possible variations: All the variations of all the above
Propositions.
** Preaching to the Choir...of the Wrong Faith **
Now, while all this might make for some interesting house rules,
this newsgroup isn't a place that's very acceptant of discussion or
use of house rules. Even moreso than "by the book," it's
tournament-legal only. No talks of combos with RTI or the Monocle,
and No Repeat Actions all the way. And that's the way I play, too.
(Only exception being that we'll allow people to play with VTES
Atlanta Expansion vampires; to be posted soon to a web site near you
=).
So, in a sense, I apologize for wasting all of your time with an
extremely lengthy theoretical discussion of a rules change that won't
ever get implemented or playtested. And, it *would* have to be
playtested, with people knowing ahead of time, before they build their
decks. However, Proposition 3 is fairly easy to implement; it doesn't
unfairly punish any deck design on it's own (as, say Proposition 1
punishes the weenie deck). It does hurt some decks offensively or
defensively, since the metagame could shift so much (The One Big Vamp
Wall decks being much easier to implement, Inner Circle Members being
trivial to bring out and squash any quick Praxes, etc.)
But, I really do find the "what if" interesting. Saying "9 is too
much pool" is one thing, but it's a great pity that "9 is just too
big" has to be said for speeds' sake. Not all vampires are created
equal, but the current system "double-counts" their size, costing you
in pool AND in speed.
So, though I honestly expect little to no response, if any group
out there wants to TRY one of these Propositions, or some more
intelligent variant, and let me know how it turns out, especially any
modifications or new Propositions they come up through playtesting,
I'd be insatiably curious what the results are. (Things like: "Well,
everyone played Inner Circle decks on day one, so we changed the rule
to X...") I'll try seeing I can get my local playgroup to try a game
or two, as well, but one group doesn't make "playtesting."
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CONCLUSION/PREVIEW
================================================================
Well, next month we'll get back to tournament-legal topics, and plumb
the depths of the Giovanni bleed deck. I'm haven't done any
"research" into the Giovanni Toybox yet, so that might wait for
November.
Also, with the release of Final Nights and all the new toys to try
out, and the corresponding shift away from Sabbat War (less
contesting!), I'm going to be spending a bit more of my playtime
trying out the OTHER 19 clans, and the OTHER 14 disciplines, and
encouraging my playgroup to feel free to play Giovanni (since they
don't have to fear certain contestation of my vamps), and hopefully
get some ideas out of them. I am, of course, always open to
submissions of any Giovanni decks/ideas/etc. that you're proud of.
Next month would also be a good time to speculate wildly about
what Bloodlines might do for the Giovanni. By the sound of it, we
should get a bumper-crop of new vampires with Necromancy, and a
surprising amount of Auspex/Necromancy. If that pans out, December or
January would be a good time to revisit the Giovanni Tap Dance (not to
be confused with Wes's Tap Danse Macabre =), an old pre-FN aus/nec
deck from Issue #1 of this volume of the newsletter.
And to all who have been reading (especially this far! on this
newsletter!), hope you enjoyed it, and Welcome to the Family!
--
Pat Ricochet
Soul Jar'rn Fool of Atlanta